Welcome to DC Public Safety \u2013 radio and television shows on crime, criminal offenders and the criminal justice system.<\/p>\n

See http:\/\/media.csosa.gov <\/a>for our television shows, blog and transcripts. We now average 200,000 requests a month.<\/p>\n

Television Program available at \ufeff\ufeffhttp:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/video\/2011\/01\/successful-offenders-%E2%80%93-dc-public-safety-television\/<\/a><\/p>\n

We welcome your comments or suggestions at leonard.sipes@csosa.gov <\/a>or at Twitter at http:\/\/twitter.com\/lensipes<\/a>.<\/p>\n

[Video Begins]<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Hi, and welcome to D.C. Public Safety.\u00a0 I\u2019m your host, Leonard Sipes.\u00a0 You know, every year, over 700,000 human beings are released from prison systems throughout the United States, and you\u2019re well aware of the failures, the 50% within 3 years who are returned to the prison systems.\u00a0 You read about them in your newspapers, you\u2019re exposed to them through radio and television, but the question is, what about the other 50%?\u00a0 The 50% who do not return back to the prison system?\u00a0 To talk about the successes, if you will, we have four individuals under supervision with my agency, the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency in Washington, D.C.\u00a0 We\u2019re a federal parole and probation agency.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk to four individuals currently under supervision for people who have turned the corner, who have crossed that bridge, who are now successes, who are no longer tax burdens, they are now taxpayers.\u00a0 And on our first segment, I want to introduce India Frazier and Tracy Marlow, and to India and to Tracy, welcome to D.C. Public Safety.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Thank you, Len.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 All right, we\u2019ve had a wonderful conversation before the television show, before filming this show today, about what it is, the stereotypes, when people think of the term \u201ccriminal,\u201d \u201cconvict,\u201d and they have this image that immediately comes to their mind in terms of what ex-offenders are.\u00a0 Now in the first segment, the two of you, then we\u2019ll have a couple guys in the second segment, but that\u2019s the issue, is it not, Tracy?\u00a0 That stereotype that people have of you.\u00a0 I was watching the other night a couple television shows, just flipping through the channel: National Geographic and A&E, and they had shows about people in prison, and the public comes away with that, saying, thinking that everybody who touches the prison system, they don\u2019t want to hire them, they don\u2019t want to fund programs for them, they don\u2019t want to give them a second chance, they stereotype them.\u00a0 Are you that person that they stereotype?<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Yes I am.\u00a0 I\u2019m one of those people that they stereotype.\u00a0 Society always publicizes what we have done, the bad things we have done, but nobody shows what the good things we are doing now.\u00a0 What I was, and what I am today is two different people.\u00a0 I have my own business now.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 You\u2019re going for your third ice cream truck.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 My third ice cream truck.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Your third ice cream truck.\u00a0 You\u2019re your own business owner!\u00a0 You have gone from prison to owning your own businesses!<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Yes, yes.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 That\u2019s amazing!<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 With the help of CSOSA and some groups and other people backing me up in my life, it was not on my own that I done this.\u00a0 It\u2019s not because, I\u2019ve been turned down on jobs so many times, but one person gave me a chance on a job.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 But when you go through your struggles in life, if anything\u2019s ever given to you so quickly, so fast, and easy, you\u2019re not going to appreciate it.\u00a0 You\u2019re not going to hold onto it, you\u2019re not going to build to the next step.\u00a0 You know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 So you have to go through your struggles.\u00a0 You have to be patient.\u00a0 And see, that\u2019s what you were.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 It comes in believing in yourself.\u00a0 If you don\u2019t believe in yourself, self-esteem is so important coming out of prison.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t believe in myself.\u00a0 I thought what people, society say, you\u2019re nothing, you\u2019ve been in jail, you\u2019re never going to be nothing.\u00a0 I believed that for so many years until one day, I can\u2019t tell you when I woke up, when I woke up and knew that I was somebody, and I worked on this, and I worked on this now, I\u2019m my own business person.\u00a0 I have people that work for me today, and I have to interview them now.\u00a0 So now, the roles have changed, and I have people that\u2019s been locked up, and you work with money with me, because I have ice cream trucks, and I don\u2019t want to be like the public was with me.\u00a0 So I have to interview these people, and I have to give them a chance, and you deal with a lot of money some days, and I say, wow, God, just give me the strength.\u00a0 Now I haven\u2019t been robbed.\u00a0 And some ones have been good and bad, but somebody gave them a chance like they gave me.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And I think that\u2019s the point, in terms of the fact that, okay, 50% do go back, 50% don\u2019t, but nobody ever tells the story of the 50% that don\u2019t, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to start doing today.\u00a0 India, set up a little bit about your experience, if you will, please.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Well, my experience is, my experience came when I was, first and foremost, I asked God to change my life.\u00a0 Give me a direction that I needed to go into.\u00a0 And I set goals in my life, and then when I came home and I looked into the eyes of my grandson, it was not an option for me to go back to the streets.\u00a0 It was so easy, it\u2019s so easy to fall back into that life, you know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 And like I was telling Tracy a minute ago, you have to go through trials and tribulations and struggles to get where you need to go or get where you need to be, so I went through my changes, you know, but unlike you, I\u2019ve always believed in me.\u00a0 I knew I was supposed to accomplish the things that I am accomplishing today.\u00a0 As of right now, I\u2019m driving, I work through the leaf season and snow season for DPW, the Department of Public Works.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 DPW, the Department of Public Works.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Yes, sir.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 In the city of Washington D.C.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 In the city of Washington D.C, and I have a CDL Class A \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay, Commercial Driver\u2019s License.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Yes, sir.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Go ahead.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Yes, sir.\u00a0 And I know I can drive.\u00a0 I love doing what I do.\u00a0 You know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 And I love coming home to my family and seeing that my grandson and my daughter\u2019s okay, and I love knowing that my grandmother\u2019s fine.\u00a0 These are the people that believed in me and pushed me to do and be all that I can be, and then I have, Dr. Butler and Miss Ishman, who is my direct parole officer, and she inspires me.\u00a0 I mean, it\u2019s not a point in time that I can\u2019t pick up that phone and call Miss Ishman and say, Miss Ishman, so and so, and so and so, well, Miss Frazier, let\u2019s look at it like this.\u00a0 I might be upset, and then I\u2019ll call her, and then she\u2019ll just get it, she\u2019ll just iron things out for me.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 You built a network up.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 I built my network.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 And that\u2019s what we need to know in society is you can make it if you build a network up.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 – people believe in you and give you that chance.\u00a0 See, this is it.\u00a0 You can\u2019t look at me based on a television program, or you can\u2019t understand who I am until you get to know who I am, until you sit down and talk to me and find out who I am, and that despite something happening 10 years ago, it\u2019s where I\u2019m standing at today.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 But society doesn\u2019t give us that opportunity.\u00a0 If society is going to say ex-con, criminal, I don\u2019t like you, I\u2019m not funding programs for you, I\u2019m not going to give you a second chance, I don\u2019t want you in this job, and I understand, all three of us understand the fears of the public.\u00a0 How can you not watch evening television without understanding the fears of the public?\u00a0 But what do you want to tell the public directly?\u00a0 What are the key things that you need the public to understand, because you\u2019re not one of the failures, you\u2019re one of the successes, but yet, you\u2019re still facing the same baggage.\u00a0 So what do you want to tell the public?<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 I want to tell the public, don\u2019t look at what I\u2019ve done, look at what I\u2019m doing.\u00a0 My past is my past, and only we\u2019re going to leave it behind if you give me a chance.\u00a0 All I\u2019m asking for is a chance.\u00a0 I\u2019m not saying that I\u2019m going to be perfect.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to sit here and tell this, oh, I\u2019m going to be a perfect and never do this, but I\u2019m going to live for today and try to do the best I can do in society under society laws.\u00a0 It\u2019s not breaking up anymore.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Right. India? And what do you tell society?<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 I have to tell society that you can\u2019t base my life today on my past.\u00a0 I\u2019m a totally different person.\u00a0 I\u2019ve worked hard to get where I am today, and don\u2019t look at me and make a judgment call on what\u2019s on paper.\u00a0 Look at me and make a judgment call on how I carry myself.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 We only have a couple minutes left.\u00a0 My heavens, this segment just flew by like wildfire!\u00a0 What is instrumental in your lives?\u00a0 Was it programs, you mentioned, Tracy, the group, or India, you mentioned the group process through Dr. Butler.\u00a0 What is it, drug treatment programs, job programs, what is it that we need to help you and others like you cross that bridge?<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Drug treatment first, program, and aftercare.\u00a0 After we come out of treatment, you need some aftercare.\u00a0 You need sessions, groups.\u00a0 The\u00a0 group that Dr. Butler runs is wonderful.\u00a0 Somebody\u2019s talking about everyday life.\u00a0 We need to know about every, going on in your life, this life, productive other people in life.\u00a0 We need groups and more programs.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 If we had sufficient numbers of programs, how many additional people could we create, if you will, taxpayers instead of tax burdens?\u00a0 How many additional people would cross that bridge over to the taxpaying side of the coin?<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 You would probably have, maybe, at least 25% more instead of a 50% going back in, you might have 25% more.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to say 50%, because, you know, like Tracy said, it\u2019s not, everybody\u2019s not perfect.\u00a0 Everybody\u2019s not ready to live that right life.\u00a0 You know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 Everybody\u2019s trying, some people try to find the easy way out.\u00a0 But you would have at least 25% turnover.\u00a0 I would say at least 60-75% wouldn\u2019t go back.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 If society was willing to look at you as individuals, especially in terms of jobs, and if the programs were available, would that make a significant difference in terms of how many people go back to prison and how many people commit additional crimes?<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Of course.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Definitely, yes!<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Definitely!<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 I mean, you have jobs in the District of Columbia that, for real, for real, could save a lot of people\u2019s lives.\u00a0 People gotta eat!\u00a0 You\u2019ve got to feed your family!\u00a0 You know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 You\u2019ve got to pay your rent!\u00a0 You know, the rent lady don\u2019t want to hear about, you can\u2019t pay your rent because you couldn\u2019t find a job.\u00a0 You\u2019ve got to pay your rent.\u00a0 So what you going to do?\u00a0 You\u2019re going to go out there and do something stupid and go right back to where you were.\u00a0 So if you have these openings within the District for these ex-offenders, or parole, probation, you know what I\u2019m saying, that would gear them towards working harder toward accomplishing things they need to accomplish, the goals they need to accomplish.\u00a0 It worked for me.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 I think the point is, is that, again, we hear the failures.\u00a0 We are never exposed to the successes.\u00a0 I\u2019ve spent 40 years in the criminal justice system, 30 years talking to people caught up in the criminal justice system.\u00a0 I see a lot of success stories.\u00a0 But those success stories are simply never told.\u00a0 That\u2019s one of the reasons we\u2019re doing this program today, is to talk about the fact that there are successes.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Yes, it is.\u00a0 It is.\u00a0 And I\u2019m definitely one of them, and the best is yet to come!\u00a0 Because I\u2019m not finished.\u00a0 I have kids, I\u2019m raising kids, and they are not going through the system!\u00a0 They are not going to go through the system.\u00a0 I am raising them to understand that, if you break the law, these are the options that happen.\u00a0 We have to break the cycle.\u00a0 The cycle has to be broken.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And the cycle is broken when mom comes out of the prison system, gets programs, gets treatment, gets a job, and the case, your case, your own three ice cream trucks, you didn\u2019t let anybody stand in your way, Tracy!\u00a0 And you\u2019re saving, not just yourself, you\u2019re saving your kids.\u00a0 India, you\u2019re doing the same thing.<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Yeah, I love my family.\u00a0 I love my family, and my grandson, he\u2019s the most inspirational power, power behind every move I make, because I want him, I don\u2019t want him to go through what I went through, you know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 I can\u2019t make the choices for him down the line, but I don\u2019t want him to go through what I went through, and I\u2019m going to give him and push him, I say, lead by example, and the rest will follow.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Now, again, so many people come out of the prison system, and they say, Mr. Sipes, or Leonard, I\u2019m not going to go back.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going back, I\u2019m not going back, I\u2019m not going back.\u00a0 6 months later, they\u2019re back.\u00a0 Now that\u2019s a reality.\u00a0 There are individuals who cannot make it, or they\u2019re not ready to make it in society, and they go back to the prison system.\u00a0 So we have to acknowledge that.\u00a0 Again, part of the fears and the perceptions on the part of the public, but I\u2019ve encountered, again, hundreds, thousands of people just like yourselves.\u00a0 One out of every 45 individuals caught up in the criminal justice system are in, I\u2019m sorry, one out of every 45 people in the community are caught up currently in the criminal justice system.\u00a0 That\u2019s like one out of 20 minimum, if you count people who have been caught up in the criminal justice system in the past.\u00a0 That means that all of us are running into offenders and ex-offenders and people caught up in the criminal justice system every day!\u00a0 By the scores!\u00a0 We\u2019re running into lots of people.\u00a0 I mean, is the question, do we want them to get the mental health treatment, do we want them to have drug treatment, do we want them to be involved in programs, do we want them to be employed, or do we want to interact with these individuals without those programs, and without those skills?<\/p>\n

India Frazier:\u00a0 Well, if you don\u2019t implement programs, if you don\u2019t implement treatment, you don\u2019t set aside a certain amount of money or set aside programs to help these people take their life and create a new person within, you know what I\u2019m saying, or guide them, or steer them towards the goals they need to go towards, you\u2019re going to keep on having a return rate of 50%, you know what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0 So yeah, we need mental health.\u00a0 We need drug treatment.\u00a0 We need voc rehab.\u00a0 We need certain little groups that Dr. Butler be having.\u00a0 You know, you need all of these things because they\u2019re reconditioning your mind to go towards what you need to go towards to be a better person.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 The final minute, Tracy, in terms of, we\u2019ve heard Dr. Willa Butler several times throughout the program.\u00a0 She runs a women\u2019s group where people who have been in the prison system as women offenders, they come together, they talk about their issues, they talk about how to solve their issues, that\u2019s tough.\u00a0 You\u2019ve got only a couple seconds.<\/p>\n

Tracy Marlow:\u00a0 Yes it is.\u00a0 Yes, because that is very powerful, because women need women, and when you talk in them groups, you get real deep.\u00a0 You talk about some personal things that\u2019s going on, because one thing, to deal with a person that\u2019s on mental health status, is really something, because first thing society, oh, they crazy!\u00a0 People have complications, anxieties, pressures in the world, and they can\u2019t cope with it and deal with it, all they need is somebody to talk to, and these groups are very important.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And that\u2019s the point that I wanted to make.\u00a0 Thank you, ladies, for being on the first segment.\u00a0 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for sticking with us as we explore this whole issue of offenders coming out of the prison system who make it, who become taxpayers, not tax burdens.\u00a0 Look for us in the second segment as we continue to explore this topic with two additional guests.\u00a0 Please stay with us.<\/p>\n

[music playing]<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Hi, welcome back to D.C. Public Safety.\u00a0 I continue to be your host, Leonard Sipes.\u00a0 Our guests today on the second segment are Cortez McDaniel and Donald Zimmerman, both individuals currently under the supervision of my agency, the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency.\u00a0 As I explained in the first segment, we are a federally funded, a parole and probation agency here in Washington, D.C.\u00a0 The concept is people being released from prison.\u00a0 50% go back after 3 years, they go back to the prison system, but 50% don\u2019t.\u00a0 The story of the 50% who don\u2019t go back just doesn\u2019t seem to be told.\u00a0 Again, you\u2019re exposed every day to the media about the stories of people caught up in the criminal justice system who do go back, you\u2019re never exposed to the fact that there are lots of individuals who don\u2019t.\u00a0 To talk about that, Cortez and Donald, welcome to D.C. Public Safety, and Cortez, we\u2019re going to start with you in terms of the second segment, and what is it that you think the public needs to understand about people coming back from the prison system?\u00a0 I mean, they say the word convict, they say the word ex-con, they have another vision in their mind.\u00a0 I\u2019m not quite sure they have you in mind.\u00a0 Correct or incorrect?<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 That\u2019s probably correct.\u00a0 What I would have the public to think about is how they\u2019d like to be associated with us as homecomers.\u00a0 We like to refer to returning citizens as homecomers, and understand that these folks are coming home anyway, whether you like it or whether you don\u2019t.\u00a0 Now how the public is associated with them is kind of up to the society as to how they accept them back.\u00a0 They need to understand the impact that we\u2019re capable of having on society in a positive way, the value that we have, the talent that we have is a very, very large talent pool, and a large number of men who are very capable of being productive members of society.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay, and I think one of the reasons, in terms of doing this program, they come to my mind, is employment.\u00a0 There\u2019s literally thousands of individuals under our supervision at Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency who would make perfectly good employees out of the 16,000 on any given day.\u00a0 They are years away from their crimes, they are years away from their last substance, positive substance abuse test.\u00a0 But they can\u2019t find work, and they\u2019re having trouble finding work, and that makes it difficult for them, it makes it difficult for us.\u00a0 To me, that stereotype of ex-con, ex-offender, is the barrier.\u00a0 So what do you say to people in terms of, in terms of that?\u00a0 They have this sense that, you\u2019ve been in the prison system, I don\u2019t want to hire you, that\u2019s all there is to it.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got lots of people to choose from, you were there, you\u2019re not getting this job.\u00a0 What do you say to that person?<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 Well, I would ask them to actually look at forgiveness and what that encompasses.\u00a0 If a person has served their amount of time that they\u2019ve been given to serve in prison, if they\u2019ve done that, and they\u2019ve successfully completed that, and they come out, and they do the things that they need to be doing in terms of supervision, then there\u2019s absolutely no reason why this person doesn\u2019t deserve to be able to experience some quality of life themselves.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Now Cortez, I\u2019m completely at fault, I didn\u2019t properly introduce you when you came onto the program.\u00a0 You were with who?\u00a0 What is your job today?<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 Again, my name is Cortez McDaniel, I\u2019m a transitional coordinator with the Father McKenna Center.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay, and what is the Father McKenna Center?<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 The Father McKenna Center is a daytime service for homeless men, underprivileged men of Washington, D.C., predominantly African American men who come in for our services during the course of a day.\u00a0 What we do is we assess men, and we act as a triage to link people up with whatever their needs might be, whether it be drug and alcohol rehabilitation, whether it be mental health services, housing issues, whatever the issues might be, we try to work with them and link them up with agencies that will help them in that direction.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Did you have a hard time getting that job?<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 Actually, the way I got that job is I\u2019m also core counsel person on the, with the Phelps Stokes National Homecomers\u2019 Academy, and we were asked, as a result of a newspaper article, to send some people over to speak to that group of men, and once we were there, the people, the administration in place there were pretty impressed with what we had to offer, and so a relationship started with me there \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And that\u2019s how you ended up getting the job.<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly right.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay, Donald, you\u2019re with the same operation, correct?<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Yes, sir.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And tell me a little bit about your story.\u00a0 You came out of the prison system, and what happened?<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Well, I came out of the prison system, and initially when I came home, I was a general manager of a trucking company \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Before or after?<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 This was after my incarceration.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 How did you get a job as a general manager of a trucking company?<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Some friends of the family, you know, they just \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 You had family connections.<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Yeah.\u00a0 They just hired me on, and I learned the business, and I was doing that for a while until the economy folded, and then I went to school to be a chef, so now I\u2019m currently working at a Hospital through a temporary agency called Food Team, and I do temporary cook positions there, but \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Can I get into the larger issue?\u00a0 I started off with the larger issue before a proper introduction of both of you, of once again, the stereotype.\u00a0 Now I\u2019m not going to be upset with society about their stereotypes.\u00a0 With the ladies on the first segment, I was watching television, I turned to the National Geographic channel of all channels, and then there was a story about guys in prison, and then I\u2019m flipping through the channels, and there\u2019s the Arts & Entertainment channel, there\u2019s another story about guys in prison, and I sat back and said, you know, if that\u2019s the public\u2019s perception of people caught up in the criminal justice system, there\u2019s no hope.\u00a0 The story they\u2019re telling was a perfectly accurate story.\u00a0 They weren\u2019t being dishonest, but it scares people.\u00a0 The evening news scares people.\u00a0 What happens when they read their newspapers scares people, and then we have the two of you, and you\u2019re not scary.\u00a0 So what does the public need to understand about this issue of people coming out of the prison system?\u00a0 What does the public need to understand to get them to support programs or to get them to give you a chance at a job?<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 The first thing that the public needs to realize is that we\u2019re human, and that we have made mistakes like everyone in life, and we have learned to overcome our mistakes.\u00a0 They have to learn to accept us and give us that second chance, as if, like a parent would do with their child.\u00a0 They say, once you finish your prison sentence, that your debt is paid to society.\u00a0 But is that truly happening?\u00a0 We tend to have labels put on us like ex-cons and ex-felons, see, but the thing is, you have to take all them labels away and recognize that I am a man and I am a woman and I will stand for something, and I will push, by any means necessary, I will be accepted, and with that positive attitude, only good things will happen.<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to take away from that, the homecomer\u2019s obligation to change their whole approach to life, their whole thought process, and matter of fact, before I came home, about three years actually before I came home, I wrote a book called recidivism prevention workbook.\u00a0 For people that don\u2019t know, recidivism is commonly used to describe the tendency of a person who\u2019s been convicted of a crime to relapse or return back to criminal behavior.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 That\u2019s a wonderful \u2013<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 So I thought about that through my own life, and I thought of how valuable it could be to a lot of men.\u00a0 So in a sense, in my own life, I realize that my whole thought process had deteriorated into how my approach to life was a way of criminal thinking, and so I had to change my principal system, my moral judgment, everything about that had to be looked at, and I had to be man enough and willing to change that.\u00a0 So I started, I don\u2019t like to use program again, because it\u2019s beginning and end to that, but I started this class that encompassed criminal thinking and criminal behavior, and it was very successful in prison, and I came out here in society with the same ideology that we are capable of being refocused, and that we have a responsibility to approach life differently.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 How many people who come out of the prison system come out of the prison system with that understanding?\u00a0 Lots of people who have told me, I\u2019m getting out, and when I used to work inside the prison system, I\u2019m getting out, and I\u2019m not going back, came back.<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Well you have a lot of \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Came back pretty quickly.<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Well, you have a lot of men and women who come out with the intent that they\u2019re not going to go back, but when they get out and they see the situation that they\u2019re, no jobs, or they don\u2019t want to accept a job, because I have the notion that there are jobs, people just don\u2019t want to go work at McDonald\u2019s, don\u2019t want to go work at Wendy\u2019s, whereas when you were in the federal prison system, you work for $5.25 a month.\u00a0 So with that being said, they see their situations, and they don\u2019t have that support system on the outside that will reeducate.\u00a0 See, one, you have to reeducate yourself into, like, your morals and your values, saying, you know, positive things to you, like, you know, you can do better, you can find a job.\u00a0 It\u2019s not how much money you make, it\u2019s what you do with the money you make.\u00a0 You know, when you start to understand the simpler things in life and start, you know, understanding true happiness and just knowing that you have to, you know, first, that you\u2019re on probation or parole, you have to first comply, take it one situation at a time, then you can move to the next step.\u00a0 Once you start to comply, then you can start going to your meetings, then you can start building relationships, and then eventually, as time progress, you will start to reeducate yourself with better understanding and more.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay, so the point in all of this is that, if you are willing to go through that process, and if you\u2019re willing to seek help, you can cross that bridge.\u00a0 You can go from the tax burden to the taxpayer.\u00a0 You can be employed, but it\u2019s really upon you if you, and how much \u2013<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 Well, the support system is very, very necessary.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 That\u2019s the point I want \u2013<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 And that\u2019s, with Phelps Stokes, that\u2019s what we\u2019re all about at Phelps Stokes, the Homecomers\u2019 Academy.\u00a0 That\u2019s what we\u2019re all about is providing a support system for a homecomer that lets them understand that, and helps to reinforce these ideologies in him and helps him understand that he has certain responsibilities that he needs to live up to, but also that he\u2019s not alone, that he has some support and some assistance in getting to where he needs to get to.\u00a0 A lot of times, people will come out of prison with, have purposed themselves never to go back, but they get out, and the support falls through.\u00a0 A lot of times people have become estranged from their families for different reasons, and they don\u2019t, they lack people who care or people who are willing to take a chance on them.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And that\u2019s what the ladies said during the first segment.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve got that group of people who can support you emotionally and get you through this process, that really does increase the chances of you doing well.<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 Absolutely.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 So the point is this.\u00a0 The final minutes of the program is that what I said on the first segment is that there are thousands of you guys out there struggling, but they\u2019re ready to make that move.\u00a0 They\u2019re sick and tired of being sick and tired.\u00a0 They\u2019re sick and tired of being caught up in the criminal justice system.\u00a0 They would be good employees, they would be good citizens.\u00a0 There\u2019s a certain point where society does have to recognize who is at risk and who\u2019s trying, who\u2019s struggling and who\u2019s trying to make it, correct?\u00a0 I mean, that is incumbent upon employers and incumbent upon people, I mean, we have to fund a certain amount of programs to help people cross that bridge.\u00a0 Am I right or wrong?<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 Well, yeah.\u00a0 I think we have to have entities.\u00a0 Like I said, I don\u2019t like to use the word program, because when I talk about a program, I\u2019m talking about a beginning and an end.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And this is lifelong.<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 But we believe in relationships, and we believe in those relationships being everlasting \u2013<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 Brotherhoods and sisterhoods.<\/p>\n

Cortez McDaniel:\u00a0 The dynamic may change as things evolve, but we believe those relationships are important \u2013<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 And the same with the research on Delancey Street out in San Francisco 25 years ago.\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly what they said in terms of the former offenders coming together as a group to help each other out.\u00a0 So that\u2019s the bottom line.<\/p>\n

Donald Zimmerman:\u00a0 What we need is real people dealing with real problems trying to find real solutions.<\/p>\n

Len Sipes:\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 And you\u2019ve got the final word.\u00a0 Ladies and gentlemen, you\u2019ve come in contact with Cortez McDaniel and Donald Zimmerman.\u00a0 This is D.C. Public Safety.\u00a0 We really appreciate the fact that you\u2019ve been with us today to explore this very important topic of people who are successes who have come out of the prison system, and yet at the same time made successes of themselves.\u00a0 We appreciate your attention, and please stick with us and watch for us next time as we explore another very important topic in the criminal justice system.\u00a0 Have yourselves a very, very pleasant day.<\/p>\n

[Video Ends]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Welcome to DC Public Safety \u2013 radio and television shows on crime, criminal offenders and the criminal justice system. See http:\/\/media.csosa.gov for our television shows, blog and transcripts. We now average 200,000 requests a month. Television Program available at \ufeff\ufeffhttp:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/video\/2011\/01\/successful-offenders-%E2%80%93-dc-public-safety-television\/ We welcome your comments or suggestions at leonard.sipes@csosa.gov or at Twitter at http:\/\/twitter.com\/lensipes. [Video Begins] […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[54,4,8,9,10,14,17,52,18,24,22],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-621","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-corrections-prisons","category-criminaljustice","category-drugtreatment","category-education","category-employment","category-interviews-with-offenders","category-mentalhealth","category-parole-and-probation","category-reentry","category-videopodcast","category-womenoffenders","entry"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/pBoKk-a1","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/621","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=621"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/621\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":890,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/621\/revisions\/890"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=621"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=621"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=621"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}