Veteran\u2019s Treatment Courts-National Institute of Corrections<\/strong><\/p>\n

DC Public Safety Radio Transcripts<\/b><\/p>\n

http:\/\/media.csosa.gov<\/b><\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

Radio program at\u00a0http:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/audio\/2014\/11\/veterans-treatment-courts-national-institute-of-corrections\/<\/a><\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>From the nation\u2019s capital this is DC Public Safety. I\u2019m your host Leonard Sipes. Ladies and gentlemen our show today is on veteran\u2019s treatment courts. By our microphones, back at our microphones, Greg Crawford, he is a corrections program specialist for the National Institute of corrections. We have Melissa Fitzgerald, Senior Director of Justice for Vets and she played Carol in the West Wing. And we have another person with a strong media background, Bernie Edelman, he is Deputy Director for Policy and Government Affairs for the Vietnam Veterans of America. To Greg and Bernie and Melissa, welcome to DC Public Safety.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Thank you.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Thanks Len.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Greg you\u2019ve got a Veterans Treatment Court white paper coming out in December, so why don\u2019t you start off giving the program giving us a snippet of the Treatment Court white paper that\u2019s coming out, also a program workshop with the American Probation and Parole Association. But first of all, give me a quick definition of Veterans Treatment Courts. What are they? Melisa did you want to go?<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Certainly, I would be happy to. Veterans Treatment Courts are an alternative to incarceration for veterans who are suffering with a mental health and or substance abuse disorders stemming from their service. And they are unlike any other court room you\u2019ve ever seen.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> And why is that?<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> They are not only places of strict accountability, which of course they are, but they are also places of hope and they are places of healing. They ensure that when veterans struggle with the transition home, they get the structure, treatment, and mentoring they need to get their lives back on track.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> All right.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> These are lifesaving court rooms, they\u2019re staffed by criminal justice professionals who have been specially trained to assess and treat the veterans that appear before them. And this interdisciplinary team consists of, judge, probation officer, defense, prosecution, a mental health care provider, a representative from the VA and then one of my favorite components is the volunteer veteran mentors who serve as mentors for their brothers and sisters who are struggling in the program.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Sounds fantastic. Greg what are the percentage of people caught up in the criminal justice system? You mentioned how many?<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Well Len, we have, you know as I\u2019ve mentioned on prior shows, the United States incarcerates more folks than any other country in the world. And about 12% of our US prison population is veterans.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Well that\u2019s amazing and that\u2019s distressing.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> And so you mentioned, Veterans Treatment Court white paper. Bernie Edelman is our author on the project and we initially met with Melissa Fitzgerald and the good folks from Justice for Vets and sort of mapped out a game plan and got some information on some of the promising courts across the country. And we made six site visits across the country and met with each of the Veterans Treatment Court teams. We obviously started with Buffalo which was the site of the first Veterans Treatment Court team and we interviewed all the key players, as Melisa mentioned the judges, and the prosecutors, and defense, and VA and mentors and it really is a place of healing. We witnessed firsthand graduations and this is a tremendous opportunity. As I mentioned there\u2019s about 12% of the US prison population but Veterans Treatment Courts are an opportunity to intervene at the front end of the system before things escalate for these veterans.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Well if there\u2019s\u2014 if we\u2019re going\u2014 there was a massive discussion, and Bernie I\u2019m going to get to you in a second. There\u2019s a massive discussion going on right now about the correctional population, whether or not it\u2019s appropriate, whether or not the United States over incarcerates. And there is no doubt that we are first in the world in terms of the rate of incarceration. So the larger issue of veterans, if there\u2019s any particular group that we\u2019re going to take a hard look at and try to see if there are alternatives, it should be veterans it strikes me. I mean considering their backgrounds.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Absolutely, I agree with you. I think it honors their service. But I also think it makes our community stronger because we need our veterans.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Of course.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> And the vast majority of our veterans return home strengthened by their military service, they come home to our communities as leaders. And I believe that all of our veterans are of our greatest and most valuable civic assets, including our veterans who are struggling on the home front. And I think it is our duty as Americans to make sure that they receive the supports that they need and the services that they\u2019ve earned and the benefits and the treatments that they\u2019ve earned, to truly come home.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> All right. Bernie, now you are the Veterans Treatment Court white paper. That\u2019s one of the things that Greg brought up a little while ago. You\u2019re Director of Policy and Government Affairs for Vietnam Veterans of America. What is the white paper? What did it deal with?<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> It dealt with, what is a Veteran Treatment Court. Why are these courts needed? It deals with how, what makes them work. How many court rooms have you ever been in, in which the defense attorney and the prosecutor are on the same side basically? Finding justice and trying to save a life of somebody who has served the country.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> The white paper says what? In terms of conclusions did it take a look at the validity of treatment courts, the effectiveness of Veterans Treatment Courts?<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> The white paper is not about statistics and it\u2019s not to try to evaluate anything. What it is, is trying to tell jurisdictions that are building Veterans Treatment Courts, and I use the word build with quotes around it, or are thinking about it, all they need to know is in this one paper.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Okay, great.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> That\u2019s that\u2019s\u2014 And one of the things, there are a lot of jurisdictions that do not want treatment courts. Why? Because they want good numbers for prosecutions, convictions, et cetera. A lot of outlying judges, this isn\u2019t their concept of justice, happens to be our concept of justice. And we\u2019re giving an option to people. And it\u2019s not only the freshly minted veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan and Bosnia before that. We have a lot of Vietnam veterans whose\u2014 I only wish we had veterans treatment courts when I got out of the Army 40 years ago.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> The bottom line is that we can save a lot of individuals who are coming out of the military who have been caught up in the criminal justice system. We can save taxpayers literally hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars over the long run by intervening in their lives by saying if what you did was not murder, what you did was not rape, we\u2019re going to intervene and see if we can help you out.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> No. No, no, no, no, no, no.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> No? Tell me.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> It\u2019s not about murder. Most courts do not deal with, if you\u2019ve murdered somebody, nuh-uh.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Not most courts, all courts. There are no murders. If there is any serious bodily injury, those are not included. That\u2019s a different category that is not in Veteran Treatment Courts.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Okay, but that\u2019s what I thought I said. What we\u2019re talking about are crimes beyond that. We\u2019re not talking about those sort of crimes.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> No we\u2019re talking about crimes that, there may be some violence, in some cases, some courts have misdemeanor offences. The thing is, once you get your name into the criminal justice system, it\u2019s there. And if you want to talk about getting jobs, you have a record, you\u2019re an ex con, forget about it. Forget it your life is not going to be what you\u2019d like it to be.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> So it\u2019s extremely important considering the service that they provided to our country to, when the crimes are appropriate, to intervene and to try to extract them from the criminal justice system through drug treatment courts.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> And I also think it very important to note that the veterans, who are appearing in the Veterans Treatment Courts, must have a clinical diagnosis of a mental health and or substance abuse disorder. And I do think that it is important that we recognize that they must benefit from treatment. And they are. That\u2019s the other thing that we\u2019re talking about. And there are mountains of evidence; you know Veterans Treatment Courts are hybrid courts or drug courts and mental health courts. So they are already in the general population, these specialized treatment courts and there are mountains of evidence. Drug courts is one of the most widely studied\u2014<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Yes they are.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Exactly.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Agreed.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> So they\u2019ve been around for 25 years and are incredibly successful, the most successful criminal justice model in the history of our country and Veterans Treatment Courts follow the drug court model.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> That\u2019s correct and it\u2019s a wonderful idea. Now for people listening to this show, the white paper is going to come out sometime in mid-December correct? And where do they go? Do they go to the website for the National Institute of Corrections Greg?<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Okay. www.nicic.gov<\/span><\/a> www.nicic.gov<\/span><\/a>. Somewhere around say December 15th you\u2019re going to be able to find the white paper on the Veterans Drug Treatment Court on the website of the National Institute of Corrections. Greg, you wanted to say something?<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Yeah. You know one of the things I wanted to bring up about the white paper that I think is unique, is that it\u2019s a peer to peer, judge to judge, passing along information to other prosecutors to prosecutors, defense to defense, about the struggles of implementation, about what\u2019s working, what were the successes and what were the challenge. And so we\u2019re going to tell these stories as well.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Okay.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> And it\u2019s about stories. This is not going to be like most government publications which\u2014<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Thank God.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> \u2014 gather dust on shelves.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Greg found that funny.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Yeah.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES:<\/b> Go ahead.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Or wind up in the circular file. These are stories and there\u2019s something that I like. I like it when people are able to speak. We edit them a bit but Judge Robert Russell, of several people in their own words. We\u2019ve recorded them, we let them tell their story. Patrick Welch, marine veteran, left part of his foot in Vietnam. How he became an advocate, he tells that story beautifully, there\u2019s nothing I can do to improve upon that by quoting him, and interjecting myself. It\u2019s about stories, we want it to be eminently readable, so that people will get into it and they\u2019ll want to go through it.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Alright we don\u2019t normally\u00a0 <\/span>book shows while we\u2019re doing shows, but Greg I want to get three of these success stories by Skype, and I want to interview them after the white paper comes out. So sometime in February if we could interview three of these individuals, so that they could tell their own stories directly that would be wonderful.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> And you will see five, if I recall, five stories of individuals, many in relation to Patrick up in Baltimore, excuse me in Buffalo, whose life was coming apart, because of various substances that he has abused for too many years. Lot of people in the criminal justice system, didn\u2019t think he\u2019d make it. Turns out he did, he is now a mentor himself. Let me say something about mentors, mentors are other veterans who have been through, similar circumstances. Lot of them are Vietnam veterans or Gulf 1 veterans. They can talk to somebody from the current wars and because they\u2019ve been through it together, they\u2019ve had similar experiences, they, the young person who has had problems with the law, has somebody whom he can talk to. Who will help him out in ways that go well beyond what you normally get in the courtroom.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Well the mentoring experience has worked for us at the Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency, we do a lot of faith based mentoring. Melissa go ahead.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Oh no I was just going to say that one of the things that is particularly meaningful, just expanding upon what Bernie was saying, about these courtrooms. Is the comradery that exists, having all the veterans on the same docket. So let\u2019s say in Buffalo, Tuesday morning from nine to noon is Veteran’s Treatment Court. All the veterans that are appearing as part of the veterans treatment court, come at that same time. Plus all the mentors, so the comradery in that courtroom, and time and time again I\u2019ve heard from the veterans participating in the programs, that this is a key piece of what makes them so successful. Because they say I\u2019m not just in this for me, I\u2019m in this for my brothers and sisters, and I want them to succeed, and myself, and so many have said to me in this courtroom. I got my unit back.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>That\u2019s amazing, an amazing story. What percentage I\u2019ll throw it out to any of you, what percentage of individuals caught up in the criminal justice system who are veterans, could be saved from, as you said a little while ago Bernie, having a life of crime. In terms of a criminal background following them, how many and what percentage could we see and extract from the criminal justice system, turning them into tax payers instead of tax burdens?<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> It\u2019s hard to give a number, and it\u2019s not that they\u2019ll lead a life of crime necessarily, but somebody who had ideas and ideals for what she wanted to do, when she joined the military, then got out and found out that there wasn\u2019t a place for her in society. She feels alienated from society, and she gives up, that\u2019s what Melissa said before, it\u2019s a place of hope and that\u2019s the key thing.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>But we have to give people a sense as to what the potential is here, a bit part of the criminal justice system is a certain doubt as to our efficacy, as to our effectiveness. Drug courts, Melissa mentioned a little while ago, are very successful. So drug courts are routinely turning in, 20% reductions in recidivism. I was wondering if that percentage could be increased in terms of veteran\u2019s courts?<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Well we have every reason to believe that we will at least match that number, because I think of the added benefits of veteran\u2019s courts including the mentors, and then also some of the, much of the treatment is provided by the VA in terms of cost savings. So \u2014<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>I did want to get into that, the VA is I would assume totally supportive of this concept?<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> The VA is a partner in this effort, without the VA I don\u2019t think the courts would work. They have computers, laptops that they bring into the courtroom. So someone says I missed my last appointment to see my psychologist, they\u2019ll call, they\u2019ll get him an appointment in 30 minutes.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> If the judge says I want this young man or this young woman to get addiction treatment at the VA. The VA rep in real time is sitting there on the computer connecting them to that.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>So it\u2019s not the horror stories we\u2019ve been hearing in the media about\u2014<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> No.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>So it\u2019s really working in terms of veteran\u2019s treatment court.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Yes absolutely.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> It\u2019s a real success story for the VA I think.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Not only that, I witnessed in the courtroom in Buffalo, somebody didn\u2019t have their benefits yet and the VA pushed them through. So they walked out the door with an appointment and their benefits.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>We\u2019re halfway through the program, let me reintroduce everybody. Ladies and gentlemen this is a fascinating show, on the Veteran\u2019s Treatment Courts. We have Greg Crawford back at our microphones, correctional program specialist for the National Institute of Corrections. We have Melissa Fitzgerald, Senior Director of Justice for Vets, who used to play Carol in the West Wing, and I\u2019m very impressed by that Bernie Edelman. He\u2019s Deputy Director for Policy and Government Affairs for the Vietnam Veterans of America. He also has his own media background. www.nicic.gov<\/span><\/a> is where this white paper that we\u2019re talking about is going to be posted, Melissa go ahead.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Well first of all, also Justice for Vets can be found at justiceforvets.org and we have a tremendous amount of information on there. You know 2008 the very first Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court was launched in Buffalo, New York, as was mentioned by Judge Robert Russell. We now have over 197 Veteran\u2019s Treatment Courts nationwide, with hundreds more in the works.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Wait a minute, wait a minute, how many?<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> 197.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>197, close to 200 Veteran\u2019s Treatment\u2019s Courts. Now that\u2019s a headline unto itself.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> I agree.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>We just made news today.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> With hundreds and various stages of implementation.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>With hundreds at various stages of implementation.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> These are catching on like wildfire, and why? Because they work, as of today, there are right now, 10,000 veterans who are being served in a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court, who would otherwise be incarcerated.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>10,000.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> 10,000.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>210,000.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Returning home to their families, being parents to their children, having jobs, going back to school, and being the leaders in our communities, that we need them to be. There was a young man in the Montgomery County Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court in Pennsylvania, one of the first that I visited. He was the first participant in this Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court, and he went through, it took him three years to get through the Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court, because he had to pay back restitution. He went back to school, he got clean and sober, he has a full time job, he is a very involved and proud father to his son, and he is living a productive life, and he\u2019s grateful for the second chance. When I went into that courtroom, to really observe, he walked up to me and said, do you have a business card, because I want to help you. I want to make sure other Veterans got the same \u2014<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> \u2014 chance that I had.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Greg you know this is sort of, I don\u2019t know the word to use, but there are disagreements, people agree to disagree in terms of what it is, that we in the criminal justice system should be doing, at all levels. But this seems to be a wedge to bring people together. I mean this is something that nobody is going to disagree with regardless of where they are in the political spectrum. Everybody is going to say hey if the crime is appropriate and the person has the background that you\u2019re talking about, for the love of heavens let\u2019s give this person a second chance.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Yes if you have any doubts whatsoever I encourage you to go visit a graduation at a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court. I went to a graduation in Erie County in Colorado Springs, I saw a young man graduate, and his wife and two young children were in the courtroom. About 18 months earlier he was headed to prison, but he got an opportunity in a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court, and not only is he a productive member of society, he\u2019s going to school, he\u2019s got a job, he\u2019s caring for his family. His wife didn\u2019t give up on him, and his children hugged him at the end of the graduation, if that doesn\u2019t bring tears to your eyes, I don\u2019t know what will.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>But so many people caught up in the criminal justice system, that\u2019s part of the problem because they\u2019ve burnt their bridges and they\u2019ve burnt their bridges so often, with so many people. They feel apart from their family, they feel apart from their community, and Bernie I sort of got the sense that that\u2019s where you were going with your remarks before?<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Some veterans you have to remember don\u2019t have family. Their family was the unit that they served with, watch your six, I\u2019ll watch yours you watch mine. They come back, they want to get out, they\u2019ve served for four years, six years, ten years, whatever it is, they\u2019re lost. Maybe the mother is a drug addict, the father has not been around, there\u2019s no family there. You go into a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court because somebody believed that this guy would, has the possibility of turning his life around. That\u2019s what happens, you go through phases in a treatment court, it\u2019s not a giveaway, it\u2019s harder for a lot of people to have to do this, than it is to say just go to prison for three years.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Very few people understand that, very few people understanding facing their own demons is one of the hardest sentences they could possibly have.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> And that\u2019s what it\u2019s about to a very great extent and the turnaround with some of these people is extraordinary.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> It takes a certain kind of courage to face your demons.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Yes.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>It does.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> It absolutely takes courage to serve your country and to be willing to risk your life for your country, and I think it takes a different kind of courage to say, I\u2019m going to enter a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court. I\u2019m going to face my demons. And let\u2019s face it, going to jail or prison they\u2019re not going to get the treatment that they need. They\u2019re not going to get the counseling that they need to really return back a healthy citizen. So this is restoring lives.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>I\u2019m going to guess and suggest that people who have been through the military are more prone to face their demons because of the discipline, and because of the unit structure that they\u2019ve come from, that maybe a different experience from regular people that we get within the criminal justice system, who do not have that background.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> There are a lot of folks in the military who come back with post-traumatic stress disorder, with TBI.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>TBI is?<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Traumatic brain injury.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Okay thank you.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> And because of that, there\u2019s something that is missing, they come back to a totally different country, that they don\u2019t relate to. Right now fewer than 1%, I believe it may even be half of 1% of Americans serve in the military. That\u2019s an extraordinary number, when I was in Vietnam it was various estimates 4% to 9%. World War II it was everybody just about. The mass of Americans do not have to serve, it\u2019s all volunteer. Those who step forward and volunteer, for whatever reason, whether it\u2019s economic or they simply want to serve their nation, the nation has to serve them. It\u2019s our obligation to serve them. If they make a mistake because of drugs, or alcohol, which is self-medication for a lot of these folks. Self-medication, they crash into a telephone pole, they have three DUIs or DWI arrests. Somebody sees them and says this guy can be helped.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Greg go ahead.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Len I just, since 9\/11 we\u2019ve had approximately 2.6 million people serve in our country. About one and a half million of those have deployed, not once or twice to Afghanistan, Iraq or both, but four and five and six times. They\u2019re coming back and they\u2019re struggling, they\u2019re struggling and that\u2019s why it\u2019s so critical for the community to get around these folks, and get an understanding.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Well that\u2019s the perspective issue that I tried to start off the program with, and before we hit the record button. So now you all, the three of you can start yelling at me. I don\u2019t want to give the impression, I mean I know tons of former Vets that are doing fine.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> There\u2019s no such thing as a former Vet by the way.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Okay.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Nicely done Bernie.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Communities embrace this, as far as I know we\u2019ve never had an instance where the community has rejected this. These aren\u2019t, these are people that served our nation, they are members of a community, okay, they come back, some of them, not all of them, need help, because they\u2019re not reintegrating the way we\u2019d like them to, and the way they would like to reintegrate, doesn\u2019t happen. So they get into trouble and there\u2019s a champion in the area who is usually a judge, sometimes a district attorney, sets up a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court. You get a lot of community input, you have the VA, you get prosecutor and defense attorney who are usually adversaries. Now they\u2019re both advocates for this individual, and that\u2019s what makes it work.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> And they get trained by Justice for Vets and I\u2019m not just putting in a shameless plug.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>No, no, please Melissa.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> We do the training and technical assistance for these courts, and it\u2019s critical that they get trained by Justice for Vets. We\u2019re the only national organization that does this, and make sure that they\u2019re following the drug court, the ten point model. I think that is an important piece of it.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Nobody\u2019s giving them a free ride, this is for accountability.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Absolutely.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>This is accountability.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> My father was a prosecutor, my entire childhood my father was an assistant district attorney. He is now my entire adulthood he\u2019s been a judge, and he is a proponent of treatment courts, and what he said to me when I asked him about this, years ago, was Melissa, anyone who knows anything about these courts, is for them. They\u2019re for them because they work.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Exactly.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> And I don\u2019t always agree with my dad on everything, but I agree with him on this.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>I have daughters, I know that.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> They work by doing a lot of things, they work by first of all, honoring the service of our veterans. They also work by reducing crime, they work by saving the tax payer a tremendous amount of money, and they return our healthy veterans back to our communities where we need them. These are men and women of honor, duty, leadership, respect, and lifelong service. We need them in our communities showing us and teaching us about true honor, and as you said, most veterans who return home, return home strengthened by their service. We cannot ignore the ones who are struggling.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> And let me throw one other thing, recidivism, there are different definitions of recidivism.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>True.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> But up in Buffalo, of the first 137, or 147 graduates, we call them graduates, only two got involved with the criminal justice system again.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>That\u2019s extraordinary.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> Unheard of numbers in criminal justice.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Those are unheard of numbers.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> And anecdotally there has been no national study, there\u2019s been no national study yet, and we are clamoring for one. Largely because the very first one launched in 2008, and the majority have opened up in the past two years. However, anecdotally we\u2019re seeing these are incredibly successful programs.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>That\u2019s the point that I was trying to get to from the beginning of the program, is that my assumption was that they would do better than the average person coming into the criminal justice system.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Let me make a point about Veteran Treatment Courts, I think the thing that is so impressive, is that like Bernie talked, and Melissa talked about is everyone, the judge, the prosecutor, the defense, the VA, treatment, they\u2019re all working together in a collaborative process, with one goal in mind, and that\u2019s to help the veteran. That\u2019s the difference.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Why didn\u2019t we do this from the very beginning, why did it take so long? This seems to be so right and just to do.<\/p>\n

GREG CRAWFORD:<\/b> Because everyone threw everybody in jail and in prison.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Why did we do that Greg, we\u2019re part of the criminal justice system?<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> This began \u2014<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>Go ahead Bernie.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> \u2014 with a couple of folks up in Buffalo, and Judge Russell, who I call the Godfather, but it\u2019s nothing to do with Italian heritage or anything like that. Two guys who worked up there, Patrick Welch, Jack O\u2019Conner, they were the lightning rod so to speak. They got the judge involved in what some other people were talking about, how do we help our incarcerated Vets and Vets who will be incarcerated? They came up with the idea of a Veteran\u2019s Treatment Court. When Judge Russell said that at a first meeting, he was expecting people to boo him, instead one guys says, \u2018Did I hear you correctly judge, you want to do a special court only for veterans?\u2019 He says, \u2018Yes,\u2019 the guy says, \u2018How can I volunteer, how can I help?\u2019 That makes it work.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>But the whole idea is everybody cooperates, everybody comes together for the good of the veteran, for the good of society. Melissa you got 30 seconds.<\/p>\n

MELISSA FITZGERALD:<\/b> 2008, Judge Russell saw an influx of veterans appearing before him, one in particular he didn\u2019t think was responding as well as he should be in a mental health court. He asked one of his court staff, who was a veteran, to go talk to him in the hallway and find out what was going on. The next week that veteran returned into the courtroom at parade rest, clean shaven, looked the judge in the eye and said, \u2018Yes sir, judge, no sir judge.\u2019 That man graduated from the program and that was the impetus and the inspiration for Veteran\u2019s Treatment Courts.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>All three of you fascinating, I\u2019d love to have you back for a future program, love to get those individuals who are caught up in the program, to provide their own personal testimony. Ladies and gentlemen we did a show today on Veteran\u2019s Treatment Courts, by our microphones Greg Crawford from the National Institute of Corrections. Melissa Fitzgerald Senior Director of Justice for Vets, and Bernie Edelman, Deputy Director for Policy and Government Affairs for Vietnam Veterans.<\/p>\n

BERNARD EDELMAN:<\/b> Almost got it right.<\/p>\n

LEONARD SIPES: <\/b>What is it Bernie, Edelman. In any event, www.nicic.gov<\/span><\/a>, my friends from New York are going to laugh, .gov, www.nicic.gov<\/span><\/a> for the white paper, on the program ladies and gentlemen this is DC Public Safety, we appreciate your comments, we even appreciate your criticisms, and we want everybody to have themselves a very pleasant day.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Veteran\u2019s Treatment Courts-National Institute of Corrections DC Public Safety Radio Transcripts http:\/\/media.csosa.gov Radio program at\u00a0http:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/audio\/2014\/11\/veterans-treatment-courts-national-institute-of-corrections\/ LEONARD SIPES: From the nation\u2019s capital this is DC Public Safety. I\u2019m your host Leonard Sipes. Ladies and gentlemen our show today is on veteran\u2019s treatment courts. By our microphones, back at our microphones, Greg Crawford, he is a corrections […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[4],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1170","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-criminaljustice","entry"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/pBoKk-iS","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1170","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1170"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1170\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1442,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1170\/revisions\/1442"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1170"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1170"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/media.csosa.gov\/podcast\/transcripts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1170"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}